
In an exclusive interview with cryptonews.com, Jack OโHolleran, Co-Founder of SKALE, talks about the Ethereum merge, the eco-friendliness of ETH 2.0, and current developments in GameFi.
About Jack OโHolleran
Jack OโHolleran is the Co-Founder of SKALE. Jackโs passion for decentralized systems and blockchain led him to join efforts with Stan Klad-ko to solve the blockchain scalability problem.
Jack is a veteran Silicon Valley technology entrepreneur with a deep background in machine learning/AI technologies and blockchain. His resume includes Co-Founder of Aktana, Co-Founder IncentAlign, and executive positions at Good Technology, and Motorola. His first work with Digital Currencies was in 2008 building a digital currency platform for Enterprise Resource Allocation. He has been an active Cryptocurrency investor and an evangelist for decentralized systems since early 2013.
Jack OโHolleran gave a wide-ranging exclusive interview which you can see below, and we are happy for you to use it for publication provided there is a credit to www.cryptonews.com.
Highlights Of The Interview
- The Ethereum Merge; its implications and limitations.
- Scalability and Multichain; the future of the Ethereum Network is moving towards Layer-2 and Multichain Networks.
- GameFi โ Current developments in the ecosystem and decentralized gaming trends.
- SKALEโs NFT Visionaries Grant Program.
- Taking power back from streaming entities.



Full Transcript Of The Interview
Matt Zahab
Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the Cryptonews Podcast. We have a recurring guest today. Believe I spoke with this gentleman close to a year ago after meeting his team at NFTNYC perhaps it was I think it was just a little bit after they threw a banger of a party there as well. And now we got him on for round two. Our guest is Jack OโHolleran, the co-founder of SKALE Labs, Silicon Valley tech entrepreneur with a deep background in machine learning and AI tech blockchain, you name it. Heโs back. Weโre buzzin and super pumped to have him on. Jack. Welcome back to the show my friend.
Jack OโHolleran
Pleasure to be here. You know, I remember last chat we had a good time Matt we didnโt only Talk Tech, we didnโt only talk crypto, we talked a lot of that. But we had a good jam session. So this will be another fun one. If youโre listening here today. Thank you. Get ready for us to go off road.
Matt Zahab
I do think you and I we had a good rip in the hot take factory last time definitely went off the rails. But you know, I had a lot of really positive feedback. So fired up to have you on. Your background. Now for the folks who are only listening, whether youโre commuting or doing whatever got your air pods in. Jack has one of the most famous and one of my favorite books Dune behind him. It seems like dune always gets brought up in the cryptocurrency world in the blockchain world tons of similarities. When did you read Dune? How did it hit? You like to remember where you were? And do you see those similarities with dune in the crypto world?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, I think I think I read Dune back in maybe thereโs like this kind of what I started getting into crypto, I think it was like to like the 2013 kind of that phase. I was just, I was like hardcore, like Foundation series. And then I read the Dune series, I just wanted this crazy sci fi kick for a while. And the funny thing was, before that I was all about reading business books, I could only read business books. I felt like hey, I need to, you know, prioritize my career. Iโm gonna read business books, learn things. And you know, that was good. But then the other thing is you read sci-fi and that actually like it let your brain go somewhere else and expand your thinking and expand time and think about and so you look at dune this is like I mean, itโs this alternate world and like crazy tech and, you know, non-tech and you know organics and interesting experiences, but itโs things like that, I think help your brain especially if youโre a founder and you need to create things and try to like, see where markets are going. You have to be able to like put your brain in a different place.
Matt Zahab
Did you by any chance catch the movie that came out last year?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, the movie was actually really good. And the original movie was even good. The books better than both books phenomenally better than the movie but the movie, you know, I thought was a pretty fair, fair effort.
Matt Zahab
I havenโt seen the film yet. And itโs only and I will itโs 100% itโs on the
Jack OโHolleran
Tonight. You got it. You got something to do tonight?
Matt Zahab
I do. I have got plans tonight. But later on this week. Definitely. Well, question for you about do no 1965 Right. I feel like that was a little bit perhaps before sort of Woodstock and psychedelic era, you know, era kind of thing. You think Frank Herbert was buzzing on shrooms, or LSD or something. You name it because like, you donโt I mean, some of these concepts are pretty far fetched. Like I first time I read it, I was like I remember being like wandering to create it. And then I googled that I look more into it. I read the Spark Notes, just to sort of fine tune some of the concepts that perhaps I missed while reading the book, and I havenโt read it since itโs on my to do list. I need to read it again. But I think he was buzzing on psychedelics or anything.
Jack OโHolleran
You know. I mean, if you think of the whole concept of the like, dust and what happens like, you know, the first time theyโre in the I want to expel the but I think thereโs no way he could heโd have to probably mushrooms. Yeah, maybe acid was pretty big back then. So.
Matt Zahab
Yeah. When was Woodstock was about seven years.
Jack OโHolleran
Whatโs that?
Matt Zahab
When was Woodstock? 70s
Jack OโHolleran
Like, wasnโt it? 69?
Matt Zahab
Or yeah, 69 Right, right. Okay. Yeah. So right before he was on the come up there. Yeah, crazy. Crazy. Crazy. Crazy. I know we talked a lot about San Fran a little bit about San Fran. Last time youโre on the pot. Iโve still never been to San Fran. I hope hopefully going to Cali and LA and San Fran in October. Is it still as bad as people say it is and my apologies to put your place of living down but like I see I see stuff on Twitter all the time about homeless people running rampant. The needles that human feces on the street. I know itโs again, itโs San Fran to San Fran for a reason. Itโs one the most beautiful cities on the planet. Incredible people but is it turning into this sort of almost shithole kind of thing.
Jack OโHolleran
It had a wave where Are things were really bad here and one of the worst things, he was just so many people, and especially like so many tech people, theyโre just because the city has this growth issue. So you can only build certain buildings of a certain height, you can only design certain buildings to house certain amount of people. And so if you have a fixed supply, itโs kind of like a blockchain if you like, itโs like a theory, Iโm like, Well, thereโs only a certain amount of supply, but thereโs so much demand, youโre gonna pay a lot. And so what happened was, is like, thereโs just like, not enough places to live there, youโre paying like double the price for this little place. And, then Uber and Lyft are subsidized. Thereโs so many people that they needed drivers, right. So they just were subsidizing drivers just to be driving around. So itโs just constant traffic, and half the traffic were just empty cars waiting to pick people up. And it was a so thereโs this like, kind of like, just friction, and people werenโt happy to spend energy and then thereโs a release valve, all these people just left and went to Austin and Miami and New York, and, you know, and country towns and, you know, mountain towns and beach towns, and all of a sudden, like the vibe got a lot better. And so got better number one. And then number two, you know, recently, I think thereโs been a dramatic shift and just kind of the approach to you know, I donโt want to say like law and order and crime, but itโs, you know, what was happening before wasnโt working. And thereโs been a change and a change in leadership. And, so hey, if you go into the tenderloin, yeah, youโre gonna see some crazy shit.
Matt Zahab
Itโs the same city though.
Jack OโHolleran
Itโs, uh, you know, thereโs but thereโs, thereโs unbelievable parts of this place. Itโs still has its magic. And, I mean, Iโm long on San Francisco. And it was nice to see that there were some, you know, just actions taken to say, hey, like, Letโs protect people and clean the place up. And you know, thereโs a homeless problem, but itโs not an easy one to solve. You know, itโs a complex problem, but itโs improving, please come visit. Come visit, weโll grab some beers. Weโll go. You know, we could go to the tenderloin if you want. Thereโs a killer there. Itโs a good spot. But we also have other places and youโll feel a lot like cleaner and safer.
Matt Zahab
100% No, Toronto, a lot of people are saying Toronto is turning into San Fran as well. So weโre sort of seeing it firsthand. And itโs interesting. Itโs, itโs quite the change to see it happens quite rapidly as well. Yeah.
Jack OโHolleran
The thing in California now is that like LA, out San Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco really quickly in terms of their like, yeah, like, the pics. Yeah. So itโs, you know how crazy things happening here in the world. Right?
Matt Zahab
Thatโs again, thatโs Cali for you though, right? Itโs if you want to live in one of the sweetest countries, not countries but you know, suite of states and geographical areas and the whole planet like you got to you got to put up with some shit no pun intended. Will Iโm sure the weatherโs what I donโt eat. Iโm not a good Fahrenheit guy. But Iโm sure the weatherโs 20 something degrees for you. Itโs for me, itโs 10 degrees today and freezing and raining. Itโs just like, itโs way different. You know?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah. And, you know, itโs interesting to just seeing the politics change and shift and nice for you, like Iโm, you know, very centrist. And just trying to think logically, Iโm not a member of either party. And, and just so like observing this, itโs like this, this, thereโs definitely like a pendulum shift happening where people are, I would say, just kind of getting back more towards like, the middle in terms of being logical instead of being whilst emotionally driven towards outcomes. And, and so I think whenever that, like, sometimes those shifts are good, the swings are good, because they help correct bad things and on either side, and then, you know, but the middle seems like where a lot of people are, you know, thereโs logic.
Matt Zahab
100% And thatโs, yeah, thatโs, thatโs another very interesting thing as a Canadian, seeing your guys politics, where itโs like, itโs so polarizing, you know, and I feel like itโs just, and weโre so infatuated by your politics. Like you guys, when itโs when itโs campaign season like your news. Itโs thatโs the first thing on our radar. Itโs not what happened in Canada. Itโs what happened with Biden, what happened with Trump? What happened with the politics show? Iโll never rent itโs like the two the two biggest things that are on our news all the time. Itโs literally like American politics, and football or the NBA. And what are those guys? Do? They just theyโre masters at locker room talk. Thereโs a reason why theyโve trumped the hockey and baseball because they donโt baseball and hockey does donโt have those crazy big trades and those moments off the corridor off the field. Itโs just theyโve created incredible reality TV shows and are infatuated by that is buzzing on that topic for a little more. And I love asking guests this one. Do you think weโll see a crypto or blockchain related series or movie or anything like that? Because I feel like weโre right for it. I feel like thereโs an appetite for that.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah. And I think the other interesting thing is Iโve been spending a lot of time in LA because thereโs so much thereโs this big NFT movement happening and Iโve been so surprised at how well versed the Uh, you know, the senior people are in media and entertainment, in terms of how blockchain works. So I think itโs got to start when they want to use it, leverage it for their own, you know, resources in terms of like funding content, creating content, managing what gets built and taking power back from the streaming entities. But then in AI as a byproduct of that, you think thereโd be some, like, really good content as well. So I think itโs coming. You know, itโs like, whoโs going to play Vitalik? Thatโs, thatโs my question.
Matt Zahab
100%, thatโs him in his, in his, in his hog in his pants after we saw that picture that went viral on the internet. Do you think, do you think that was strategic? Because again, I these guys are, you know, light, youโre smarter than me? Do you think that that was a strategic play, where in some virtual ETH boardroom, the, you know, the bo D are just the founding members of the ECE team are like, this is great rate before the merger before heโs 2.0 to just maybe take some light off of everything and just let everyone see metallics hog, like lagenda you think that was planned or you think that was just completely laissez faire nonsensical
Jack OโHolleran
After now, knowing how, you know, the, the people work in that entity? Definitely not, thereโs not that level of strategy. I love to think that they were that clever, but in there, I would say there, itโs almost more like, you know, like, like a nonprofit foundation in terms of the business strategy, in terms of skill sets, compared to like, these big like, a big corporation would like their PR people that go, Iโve got this idea, weโre gonna do this, and theyโd like orchestrate these things. And itโs a statement not Ethereum foundation, theyโre, theyโre kind of like, you know, they like, you know, humble doers. And supporters of this big thing then, and just kind of think riding the wave of the columns as it happens.
Matt Zahab
A good point, and you would know better than most you work with them. Very, very closely. Nice little segue, into ETH, weโll touch on ETH before we even get into SKALE, the ETH merge, itโs been a trending topic over the last month that and then, of course, the whole sort of macro landscape of just the global economy and crypto as a whole. But what are the some of the implications and limitations of the ETH Merge? As a consumer? What do we have to look forward to?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, so So what I think the main value that we all got from this is Ethereum now is dramatically more eco-friendly. Okay? Itโs just a much more eco-friendly product. Weโre not burning insane amounts of energy, you know, running proof of work algorithm algorithms, right? Proof of proof of work consensus, weโre using proof of steak, itโs just so much more energy friendly now, it isnโt dramatically faster, or less expensive, but itโs better, the performance is better. I donโt know if anyone has gone and like run transactions run smart contracts, but theyโre running faster and less expensive, but not dramatically more. So. Right. And so itโs but that wasnโt the goal, the goal is for this for the merge was to, you know, build the structure that then is more pluggable into Ethereum scaling platforms, like SKALE, for example, or different e scaling solutions, thereโs the goal to is to not just have one, but many that are, you know, successful conduits to help Ethereum provide value into different applications and bring scale to Ethereum.
Matt Zahab
And yeah, itโs crazy how your name, SKALE and scale it just like it rolls off the tongue so smooth, you know? On the eco-friendly side, though, and again, Iโve heard this many times and full disclosure, I havenโt done my DD I should have I have no reason not to be too busy, too lazy, whatever, insert whatever adjective I want to throw in there, but can you explain how exactly itโs more eco-friendly? Because I know a lot of them listeners would actually love sort of the nitty gritty explanation.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, letโs. Iโll try to Iโm gonna give a Yeah, I can describe this. So the way blockchains work is thereโs a certain amount of people or entities that run these, essentially computers, and what they do, is, they all have to, like, you know, say something is, you know, is what it is. And so letโs say thereโs like 10 people that were doing this in a group and, and, you know, they everyone had to say that, like, you know, something is green or red and, and the things green, but then all of them have to be like, Okay, itโs green. But then letโs say like, you know, like, a bunch of clue to say, hey, letโs just say itโs red. Because if itโs red, these other people gonna be wrong and we get to take their money. Well, so thatโs the way consensus works are all kind of voting on something or like saying something is what it is. And then the majority is right. And so this thing comes up, itโs green, but then like, like six of the 10 collude to say, hey, letโs all just lie together. And they say itโs red. Well, guess what? Itโs red, because the truth is what the majority says, not what reality is. And so thatโs called, thatโs consensus. Itโs this. Itโs a way of voting and, you know, coming to a mutual, like a group agreement. Now, the way that blockchains work is, thereโs two main ways to do that. One is, is proof of work. The other is proof of stake. And the thing with proof of work is, what youโre trying to do is, in order for those people who are gonna say, as green or itโs red, the reality is theyโre saying lots of complex things like, you know, you have this many ETH, and this person has this many ETH. And this smart can contract did this and this, like, thereโs a lot of complex logic, but Iโm making it as simple as possible. Itโs two colors, and but how do you motivate the people to not lie? When itโs green, you want them to say itโs green? Well, so use carrots and sticks, the carrot is a reward. And itโs like a block reward. Right? And, and thereโs rewards given out in both proof of stake and proof of work. But the sticks different in proof of stake, itโs kind of like, letโs say you rent an apartment, and you have to put a deposit down on the apartment. And if you trashed the apartment, while the landlord takes your deposit, right, thatโs kind of you have a stake on your apartment. And as a validator, somebody who runs a computer and proof of stake you putting money down, thatโs your deposit. And if youโre a bad guy, and you say, itโs red, and it was actually green, well, if you lose, you lose that deposit. Gotcha. Now, proof of work is you put energy on the line each time each time youโre running all this energy. And if youโre wrong, and you have to accumulate enough energy amongst your pack, to be trying to beat the other guys, if youโre wrong, you just lost like millions of dollars worth of energy to try to beat the other group. And so you need to have the energy costs have to be higher and higher than the like, you know, there has to be this thing. And then the reward has to be a certain. So it just motivates people to do the right thing. And so itโs just very logical, instead of making people burn all this energy constantly, you just make them put something down once and if theyโre a baddie, they lose it. If theyโre.
Matt Zahab
Baddy, I love it. That was a great analogy. Thank you for that. Yeah, itโs the days of low gas wars, and Iโm sure they will still happen. But absurd, absurd gas wars those days will be I donโt want to say not missed, because they created some great PR. And I remember just, you know, tweets and stories in the industry. Oh, I lost 10k on trying to invent an NFT name and get it. Itโs just, I feel like weโll look back at this and time years down the road, when ETH is still the behemoth that it is. And I feel like weโll just laugh at this. You know what I mean? Like, and itโs also very unique, because thereโs what been less than 100,000 people whoโve actually got to join this parade got to take part in this parade. You know what I mean? Like, when we talk about this years down the road, most people wonโt even know about it.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not many people have actually like executed a smart contract on the Ethereum main net. And meaning, like youโve like mentioned an NFT, youโve executed a smart contract. And, and but this other thing to those gas wars will still exist, you still pay gas. And thereโs still only a finite amount. Itโs just that the penalties are different. And the mechanisms different off for the computers, when they come to agreement, the users it feels and looks and acts very similar. Right? And you still thatโs why SKALE exists, right? Because Ethereum only has a certain amount of supply. Itโs like, letโs say itโs a rideshare platform, or like Uber or Lyft. And thereโs only 100 cars. Well, in Ethereum, even though itโs proof of stake, letโs say like, now, all of a sudden, not 200 people on a ride, well, they canโt make new cars, thereโs only 100 cars, and so the price is gonna go up and go up in their surge pricing without any sort of easement on the that will help grow the supply element. And so they still have that issue, whereas SKALE has this supply demand model where thereโs all this, like all of these cars, and if you know thereโs more cars needed more chains can be created. And it just helps there continually be more supply that can balance the load, you know, with the load. And you know, itโs blockchains and rideshare platforms are so similar and, you know, you either if you donโt have search pricing, which a lot of chains like keep their gas prices really low, then you might have like a minute or two minutes or you know, an hour long or what day long transaction because you didnโt put in have gasoline? Because theyโre like, well, letโs keep the gas prices low, itโd be like, well, I ordered an Uber, theyโre like, well, thereโs no surge pricing, Iโm sorry, sir, just wait till youโre wait till youโre up in the queue. And then youโll get the right and youโre like, but I needed to right now, not in four hours. And, like, I will go to the platform that lets me pay more to get the ride when I need it. And thatโs.
Matt Zahab
That point you just brought up is the thing I remember more than anything else on our previous pod a year ago, and I remember telling friends and, you know, perhaps the odd family member, but just when I was asked, so you know, then you get points from Jack on the pod. And I gave that exact analogy Iโve recited that dozens of times, probably not giving you as much credit as I should. But that really, that really stuck with me.
Jack OโHolleran
Good analogy, keep using it, keep going with it.
Matt Zahab
Itโs just when youโre when youโre describing a very complex topic, it doesnโt even have to be blockchain related just in life like that people want something that they can be familiar with, you know, they want to familiarize that subject with something that is just first nature to them. Itโs just, you know, a walk in the park. Everyone takes Ubers I canโt remember the last time I took a cab anywhere. I Uber everywhere. And it just it makes so much sense. So when he told me that my brains just like, holy shit, this, I get this.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah. Thereโs a lot of blockchain is very, you know, can be brought back to normal real world analogies. And when you do that, more people can understand it. And instead of like, I think thatโs one of the issues, we have all these scientists in the space who know a lot. And then thereโs just like, lack of, thereโs lot of people are interested, but we need to are getting more of the information to people in ways that are more accessible. Because if you just are talking about technical terms, itโs just unless you have that base nomenclature, you donโt, youโre not going to know what the hell people are saying.
Matt Zahab
And like, so many people in the space that are so smart, I have a lot of guests come on to and theyโre just stuff that theyโre talking about. And Iโm just like, well, you know, and Iโm not going to pretend like I fully grasp and Iโm fully cognizant of whatโs going on. So kudos absolutely love that analogy. Some huge SKALE news. I think a couple of different things will happen here. A lot of different things. First and foremost, I believe the rebrand smaller. That was one.
Jack OโHolleran
Like I would say, itโs like a brand update. So if you go to the website, the new websites up, thereโs just, you know, thereโs been a like, you know, an amazing job by a lot of people that came together to help, you know, SKALE is this, you know, itโs like scale verse. Itโs a universal blockchains. And so thereโs this whole outerspace theme and so check it out SKALE, dot space, new website.
Matt Zahab
The websites, it feels a lot more. Before it was very corporate, I found, and whereas now itโs more welcoming and gamey. Itโs almost GameFi-ish, you know?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, gaming is, thatโs another big thing. Gaming is just booming, on SKALE right now. And so if you look at a look at the usage data, of SKALE. SKALE, has more transactions and users and a lot of like, you know, top 20 Like market cap coins blockchains. Itโs just during the down market. I think thereโs just not massive awareness about whatโs happening. Weโre just, weโre executing, weโre helping as many developers as possible, helping as many applications as possible. And yeah, man, weโve been on a hockey stick growth. Thereโs been, I think, 7.9 million transactions. And almost entirely since July. So in June, we had 60. You know, the whole network upgraded and switched to v2, there were 63,000 transactions in June as the upgrade took place. 1.1 million in July 2.6 million in August, thereโs already been 3.5 million this month. Weโre hoping to hit 4 million this month. So yeah, man, weโre having fun. Weโre and thereโs already been, I think, 50,000 total active users that have used SKALE, which has been amazing to see. So the good stuff.
Matt Zahab
There was never a doubt in my mind that you guys would keep buzzing from the GameFi perspective here. Tons of developments in ecosystem and tons of trends with decentralized gaming, specifically towards SKALE. If I want to use SKALE network, and SKALE ecosystem, what sort of value props do I get as a builder or creator of set game? Like, why should I choose SKALE over MATIC? Or, you know, no one really built on ETH but you know, or immutable flow. Why? Why SKALE?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, so the thing with SKALE, thereโs zero gas fees for the end users, okay? Thatโs the number one thing I mean, it has instant finality. Itโs faster has all this mathematically provable consensus that uses like, incredibly secure bridging. sort of BLS threshold signatures with the end of the day, end users donโt have to pay any fees. And because the fees are subsidized by the chain renter, like the games basically pay a fee every year in SKALE tokens as opposed to the other way around.
Matt Zahab
Gotcha. Interesting. So the games pay the fee, every single year, or monthly, whatever the case may be monthly, yeah, instead of the instant transaction fee every single time.
Jack OโHolleran
And itโs just whenever youโre paying for things in advance, itโs dramatically less expensive. Number one, number two, number two, itโs like, itโs kind of like renting a car. So if somebody rents a car, and you have to pay by the mile or so other products work on SKALE, you pay by the month, and you might drive the car, not at all, it might sit in your garage the whole time, or you might be driving it constantly, right? But you just pay the same fee. But a car, you know, thereโs only a certain amount, you know, thereโs only a certain amount you can drive it anyways, right. And so just like SKALE, you canโt like have this unlimited capacity, because itโs just it has certain constraints, but you can use it as much as possible up to, you know, as fast as it will go, can only go 100 miles an hour, but you can drive 100 miles an hour as much as you want. You rented the car.
Matt Zahab
Interesting. And you guys also just announced the NFT visionaries Grant Program, which is an allocation of 10 million SKL. And thatโs from the previously announced 100 mil USD value, which is part of the SKALE ecosystem incentive program. Thatโs a lot of fucking money, pardon my French, because you guys are really, you guys arenโt screwing around, youโre throwing it out there and saying, come build on our ecosystem, and weโre gonna make it worth your while.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, we are, well, this is community money. Itโs being treasured by the Foundation. And then thereโs a grant issuance process, and people apply. And a lot of people involved in determining where you know, where those where those tokens go, but itโs all about helping, you know, people are building on SKALE, we want to make sure theyโre successful. Okay. And, and getting tokens to help their growth and their success is, makes a ton of sense. As far as growing the ecosystem.
Matt Zahab
Good point there.
Jack OโHolleran
If youโre, if youโre a creator, if youโre an artist, if youโre have an NFT project, if youโre thinking, you know, like, come to the SKALE website, you can, you can find the link pretty easily to this. You know, in the blog, or other areas, there should be a button on the website, you can find and, you know, apply, weโre here to also help. You know, weโve got this whole gaming category, weโve got this whole NFT, artists, creators, everything happening with NFTs. And we also have this whole web3 application, side. And those are the three you know the thing, the theme of all of these is lots of transactions, super high volume of transactions, where you need low-cost transactions. If you have a bunch of transactions, and you youโre trading 100 grand and you donโt care if you have $100 fee, but if you want to swap $10 of USTC and $10 for the gaming token, why would you ever do that if you have to, you know, pay a $5 gas fee. He just wouldnโt
Matt Zahab
Yeah, Itโs nonsensical and so.
Jack OโHolleran
Scale doesnโt price out normal users and it lets normal types of transactions exist on chain where itโs you know, not feasible and other chains.
Matt Zahab
Jack you bang on there we got to take quick break and give a massive shout out to respond to the show and that is PrimeXBT you guys know Iโve been using PrimeXBT for a hot minute now is they offer a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders doesnโt matter if youโre a rookie or a vet you can easily design and customize your layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style. PrimeXBT is also running an exclusive promo for listeners of the Cryptonews pod. Promo code is CRYPTONEWS50 and that gets you 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. Again, that is CRYPTONEWS50. CRYPTONEWS50 all one word to receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. Now back to the show with Jack. Jack, gaming. GameFi. Web3 gaming last time we spoke it was almost a sure shot that 2022 would be the year that onboards the masses via Web3 gaming itโs been the exact opposite of that obviously GameFi is doing great on SKALE and a couple other blockchains a couple other ecosystems that as a whole itโs really falling off a cliff and the main issue is still way too much friction and sort of the main ethos the whole play-to-earn is really just hogwash. Itโs you shouldnโt be playing a game to earn you should be playing to have fun and if you earn on the side, lovely you had a nice little nice little level up here. Nice little bit of coinage here and there but some of the main ethos how far down the road are we from seeing a bunch of really a games pop off how far down the road are we to see web3 gaming actually becoming a thing and seeing that hockey stick growth because certainly it hasnโt been this year and a lot of us ROP.
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah. So I think one piece of that is so the way you could look at it, thereโs just like, you know, this x and this y axis, and the x axis is like, you know, gameplay. And, and thereโs like basic gameplay and advanced gameplay and what that means is like, How fun is that? How engaging is it? How many? How are these viral loops integrated? How hooked Are you getting on the game itself, and thereโs a whole science of that, okay. And most blockchain games are like really far on the on the left side of that where they like have really shitty gameplay. Boring, people are just clicking these buttons so they get totally true. And, and then the y axis is like understanding of, you know how to leverage cryptocurrency smart contracts and NFTs. Itโs this whole blockchain skill set. And, you know, at the bottom of that, the low end of that are like traditional games that have no fucking clue how to like, even what this stuff is how it works at the top are like the blockchain, like the GameFis, thereโs just dispersion on each opposite end, where the game people the blockchain people have kind of shitty games. And incredible understanding, though, of like, you know, the dopamine around the, you know, like earning tokens and like getting NFTs and like speculators are buying in the other side, they are really good at the game mechanics, but they donโt understand the other piece. Now. One, thereโs going to be games, theyโre theyโre sort of coalescing towards the middle, or like in like, you know, the center, but eventually weโre going to be up into the right where we have these phenomenal games that know how to introduce NFTs they know how to introduced you know, the GameFi they know how to, like, introduce tokens and play to earn mechanics because play to earn mechanics arenโt bad. Thereโs play to earn mechanics in every game, but the reality is that youโre earning digital currencies that help you just within game asset purchase in game purchases, not extrinsic purchases, and so and so. So one, I think itโs going to still be like, I think weโre two or three years until, like, thereโs just like, up into the right full on like immersive gaming experience. But whatโs happening is the blockchain people are getting smarter at the game stuff, and theyโre kind of going from up into the middle. And the gaming, people who are all the way down on the right are going to be up a little bit and still to the right, so theyโre going to both come to the average. And theyโre going to be able to start integrating some basics of the other skill sets. And youโre going to just start getting better blockchain games, but theyโre still blockchain games, not triple A games. And youโre gonna be getting, you know, get triple A games that introduce like NFT components and, and some like, you know, currency components, but theyโre going to be still kind of like obfuscated from the user. And like, very, like, you know, omnibus custodial model where thereโs like, one wallet holding all of these tokens and their systems basically, like, pretending to be a ledger, you know, and but still, like, theyโre going to be adopting some of these things that people really like that are powerful. And I think Iโm seeing that already happen. And so my feeling is, next year is going to be a huge, another huge growth curve, but gaming is leading the wave, and will bring in the next million, or like 10 million users easily, weโre gonna have, youโre gonna say, Hey, whereโs the next 10 million users coming the fastest internet for blockchain? Itโs gaming. And the second one is web3 applications.
Matt Zahab
And itโs true, itโs, itโs just, it takes a long time to build a good freaking game too. And you canโt be a shitty mobile game that just sort of got lucky. And that does happen a lot where a very low bandwidth game gets put into the App Store, Google Play, and it pops off with the amount of incredible triple A games on both mobile and desktop and console, you need to develop something beautiful. And again, most of this money came in end of 2020 or last year. So it takes more than a couple of years to build an absolute incredible game. And Iโm excited for that.
Jack OโHolleran
We got some friends in San Francisco that do that do gaming they do mobile gaming, they know this world and for them itโs like in first minute the users not playing and hooked and doing something fun the games dead. Yeah, theyโre toasting blockchain. It sometimes can take 20 minutes to just figure out how to get in and like get authenticated. Get Metamask going really good point. Oh, start playing and then like, you know, and so you know, just by that like, itโs like already 20x worse in terms of onboarding so.
Matt Zahab
Itโs gonna be a web3 game that looks and plays like a web two game, right? It needs to have the technology it had needs have web three tech, but interface UI UX flows, everything needs to feel play Gingerโs be Web2-ish, right? Where the in-game assets that you have are actually NFTs. But you donโt even really know that. Thatโs what it has to be otherwise, like perfectly how is he gonna take away all that friction? You just itโs not there. Itโs interesting because again, Iโm, you know, Iโm not going anywhere you and I are still building in the in the bear market. But itโs itโd be itโd be interesting to see which game do you do you have a hot take on this which game you think will start the braid?
Jack OโHolleran
We I mean, obviously some awesome games on SKALE come together. So delta table which is part of crypto Colosseum, check that out. Itโs a very basic game as a start just a mini game, but theyโre launching this whole series of games and they just have this, like amazing narrative and immersive story and NFT assets. Crypto blades is just crushing it on SKALE. Thereโs just so many users are tons of transactions like thereโs like hundreds of 1000s of NFTs that have been moved over. Block brawlers is a pretty early-stage game and there but thereโs just like an addicted set of people playing Metaverse, Invaders is going live this month really, you know very soon on SKALE. And thereโs you know, a lot of games a lot of games crypto crusades is another cool game thatโs going to be going live on scale that you can play the play the beta right now, thatโs a game thereโs no itโs actually on SKALE on a test scale chain. And you can download it on the Apple App Store and play this game and itโs like feels like a web2 game fully crazy.
Matt Zahab
No non-SKALE?
Jack OโHolleran
The other big one thatโs on I think itโs a top five on Polygon thatโs moving over to SKALE.
Matt Zahab
Any non-SKALE ones you think that could really pop off? Or be that bridge?
Jack OโHolleran
You know what, so what I would say is thereโs some that weโre talking to right now that arenโt live yet that are pretty cool in that and you know, hopefully they in a building on SKALE, but regardless, I think theyโre gonna Iโm not gonna say their names but what theyโre doing is theyโre integrating like with real world sports and real world NFTs and then introducing all this gameplay and like pulling in these fans and you know, things like that I think are interesting because theyโre but you know that thereโs no like Legend of Zelda yet. Thereโs not like something thatโs like just this immaculate gameplay and it has NFTs and the big pieces that itโs almost like thereโs this religious battle because gaming purists hate blockchain to a play.
Matt Zahab
They do. I donโt really understand why though to be honest, because like, you think like even I think the FIFA example. Every year you get FIFA you get the new FIFA you keep playing with it. You keep buying new players for fought FIFA Ultimate Team, whatever Madden NHL, thatโs the same for every sports game. Same with Fortnite or COD, you donโt get to bring those in game assets to the next one. So as a gamer, if all these triple A studios use the blockchain, youโre saving hundreds of dollars a year because youโre going to be able to bring those in game assets. And then youโll have access to a peer to peer marketplace. Do you know why they shit on it? Is it just like the scared of something new?
Jack OโHolleran
They are making so much money now theyโre thinking, well, we look all the money, and all this value people are putting in to buy these things in FIFA. But if all of a sudden the marketplace is free, and they could sell the ball they just bought or like the asset and the leave, and then theyโre gonna go over and play like this other thing, theyโre gonna leave, they can leave us easier. They feel like theyโre losing their.
Matt Zahab
Jack, I get that Iโm talking on the consumer side. Like weโre again, like they I donโt get it though. Why did they know like it?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, I know. Itโs like theyโre getting screwed over. Right?
Matt Zahab
Is there a reason though? Am I to lunch here?
Jack OโHolleran
You know what it is, is I think a lot of the game purists are in the games, because they love them, and they love gaming. And then blockchain games like these arenโt fun to play. You know, we like things that are fun. And these are scammy things. And so but I think itโs also like rhetoric, like theyโre all part of these games are very community oriented. And the people that run the communities are the games themselves. And they do them through like, you know, theyโre very strategic and how they work with their Twitch influencers. And theyโre like, sounds like these religions. And so when the high priest is saying, donโt do that, thatโs bad, then the followers are like, Yeah, donโt do that. Thatโs bad. Right. And so, in a way theyโre being I think theyโre being manipulated, unknowingly, against their best interests.
Matt Zahab
Interesting.
Jack OโHolleran
Because these things arenโt mutually exclusive, right? No, I donโt mean to try and like hey, the other my other theory on this is So imagine youโve spent your whole career building up like this whole recipe of how to do things and how to motivate people and youโre the person that figured out how to get all these people hooked in the game and you know, loving all this stuff and, and like getting all these like psych like these deep psychology things. About like dopamine hits and viral loops and all these things that go into gamification, then all of a sudden, someone comes up with a shitty game. And they just have a currency and it basically makes your whole library of science that youโve developed for the last 20 years of your career. Like partially useless.
Matt Zahab
Cheese me 100%
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, and I think theyโre like, Well, hold on there, this is the right way to do weโve been doing forever, like, these games, donโt do any of that. But these people are hooked. Itโs just because youโre paying them and thereโs a current and so they, they donโt like you know, people who are experts in a prior version of the world donโt like change and instead of embracing and saying, Well hey, how can I apply my knowledge and integrate this new thing and come up with something even better and more awesome they fight it because theyโre the experts and they donโt want you know, their doctrine of knowledge to be outdated.
Matt Zahab
You nailed that on the head there that would suck thatโs a lot a lot of hard work thatโs not going to waste but you never liked to see the show and you know and thatโs the blockchain is going to end a lot shows. Jack this has been a treat and now weโre getting hold tight for time here letโs jump into the hot take factory we had a blast in there last time to do it again. Any Jack-only hot takes can be life politics, health, wealth, happiness, nutrition, you name it, preferably not crypto, just to you know to see the personal side of you any crazy hot takes that Jack has?
Jack OโHolleran
Crazy hot takes. Okay. Quit eating breakfast, just drink coffee.
Matt Zahab
I love that.
Jack OโHolleran
We talked about that earlier. Right?
Matt Zahab
Jack for the listeners at home Jack and I we bonded over that before the show. Weโre both intermittent fasters. If you havenโt done it, I highly recommend giving it a chance. It takes about two weeks to get your stomach to shut the hell up and not feel the need to tell your brain that itโs hungry anymore. But once you do, itโs literally life changing. Like I itโs crazy. Itโs how much better doesnโt make you feel.
Jack OโHolleran
Hereโs another one. Do something uncomfortable every day.
Matt Zahab
That. Yes, thatโs very synonymous with Paul Grahamโs sort of do things that donโt scale. Thatโs when you put your Yeah, thatโs a good one. Whatโs the last uncomfortable thing you did?
Jack OโHolleran
Last uncomfortable thing I did yesterday. I mean, so I quit. I basically quit going. I quit lifting weights during COVID. And I was just doing all like non weightlifting activities. And I used to be a college football player. And then yesterday, I just went back to the gym and I like crushed a bunch of weights and pull ups and, and I was like, Iโve been avoiding doing that because I just havenโt been doing that at all since pre COVID. And anyways, you know, thatโs a good example of like, okay, like, you donโt want to do it. And you just make yourself do it.
Matt Zahab
Tell us where do you play college ball?
Jack OโHolleran
Nebraska.
Matt Zahab
Let me guess tight end?
Jack OโHolleran
No I was a slot receiver.
Matt Zahab
Slot. Wow. Because yeah, you look like youโre a bit of a unit. Like in a good way like you got. You got the quickness to you. But what was your favorite route?
Jack OโHolleran
Ah, probably the slat route.
Matt Zahab
Slot receivers you guys are ballsy bastards, though going across the middle you get your head popped off all the time. Like, you get paid doing it, man. Oh, man, itโs Did you ever get absolutely just clocked?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, yeah, you do. But you get a clock people too. So it all kind of goes around as long as you like, you know, get a hit somebody once in a while you get him once in a while. Itโll make sense. It doesnโt hurt if you catch the ball too soon you drop it, you get clocked and it feels worse.
Matt Zahab
But what was that like playing uni football at a college football at University of Nebraska. You must have been like that. I have goosebumps just thinking about it. And I didnโt even play college ball. What was that? Like?
Jack OโHolleran
Oh, I mean, it was crazy. I mean, youโre out there on a field and youโve got 100 You look around, youโve got 100,000 people watching you. And youโre on TV and thereโs millions of people watching itโs pretty itโs pretty crazy. You know and then when your The game starts you just locked in, you donโt even itโs like youโre in practice, like you donโt, you know see it but itโs also just an immense like workload. Youโre just good training for my career, because youโre just going nonstop, you know, morning to night school, weightlifting, training plays itโs, itโs itโs Cryptoโs nonstop. Yes. 24/7 Global.
Matt Zahab
It builds discipline. One last question for you here, Jack. And thank you very much for your time. The Iโm a big sports fan myself, you and I bonded about this on our first kick at the can on the pod about a year ago. What is that feeling? Like after you hang up the cleats? Right? Because you had the adrenaline that only less than 1% of the population has ever felt and you have 100,000 fans screaming and watching the play. And then once youโve joined the professional world, thatโs gone. Itโs taken from you. Did you have a crazy transition? You know, I know itโs more difficult for actual for pros because they do it for a prolonged period of time. Itโs more synonymous with their life. Itโs all they know really. But did you have any of those sort of, you know, dark moments or times when youโre like, Wow, this shit is no longer growing on trees. In fact, itโs gone. I donโt mean to be negative.
Jack OโHolleran
But to reinvent yourself. Itโs like an Everybody, you know, you see people, some people that happened to them in high school and theyโre like, still glory days, like, you know, talking about their high school football, you know, you know, and they like, donโt ever move on. And a lot, I saw it with a lot of my teammates in college, like, you know, itโs like a can be a peak moment of your life. And if youโd like, let it be the peak moment in the peak gold and like, youโre kind of stuck there forever. And these guys are always hanging around hanging out of the stadium and like, just trying to, like live off that forever. And itโs, itโs great to still always be a part of it, but you have to. And so for me, I just had to, like reinvent my note my Northstar. And I remember I was at a certain point, I was like, You know what, like, I had such a goal to be in the NFL. That was my number one goal. And I realized that one day, I was like, had to be really honest with myself and was really hard. And I had to say, You know what, Iโm not going to make it to the NFL. And I also had, like, you know, really good grades, because I knew that even if I wasnโt the NFL I needed to have, I wanted to have a good job and, but I just was like, alright, like, now my next goal and my next goal, and I ended up making like moving to Silicon Valley, I donโt want to, you know, like, start working in tech. And I want to, you know, be a CEO of a company someday and, you know, run a company and I didnโt, I didnโt know if Iโd start a company that kind of happened as I came out here. And I learned how things work. But I just reset my goals. I had to reinvent myself and my first job. I went from being like famous in Nebraska where I like sign autographs for people at dinner. Like going to dinner with my friends and people ask us for autographs to like working in a cubicle and having middle managers like bossing me around. It was like very humbling. And I ate dirt for a while and it was good for me. I was my so whoever you are, yeah, if youโre in one of those things, youโve got to just like, You got to find the next thing and be willing to like, you know, you know, yeah.
Matt Zahab
Pivot and reinvent Jack do the man appreciate you coming on always have so much fun. Before you go can you please let our listeners know where they can find you and SKALE online and on socials?
Jack OโHolleran
Yeah, so go to @jackoholleran on Twitter, you can go to @Skalenetwork scale with a K. You can find links to pretty much everything through the SKALE website which is skale.space. And you know, come join the discord. Come join the telegram. Come join on Twitter. Thereโs an amazing community called the Skaliens just really engaged people every day chatting amazing developer community so Come Come join in. And Matt, thanks, man. This has been itโs been a blast. been fun.
Matt Zahab
Always appreciate you man. Folks. What an episode with Jack OโHolleran from SKALE. Dropping knowledge bombs as always great analogies great stories. Canโt wait for round three with Jack and the SKALE team folks I really hope you enjoyed this episode. The team love you guys Justas my amazing sound editor. Youโre the GOAT I appreciate you and to the listeners love you guys more than anything. Keep on growing those bags and keep on staying healthy, wealthy and happy bye for now and weโll talk soon.
Read More: cryptonews.com